Role Models

Dying doesn't make you a Role Model

Published on April 24, 2004 By Muggaz In Current Events

Interesting choice of Role Models you have over there in the USA... I was reading Shadesofgreys article on Pat Tilman, and no disrespect to this particular individual - but he is no role model for dying, or joining the army... He was merely a tool in a play between great evils... It was unfortunate he had to die, but dont glorify him because he could have been playing football... It doesn't make him any different from any other soldier that dies.

Is that the kind of message you want to send to your children?? If you go to a foreign country as an invading army, and you die, but you could have been earning millions of dollars playing football - that makes you a role model?

Pat Tilman should never have died. No US soldier should have died in Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter... If Pat Tilman was directly defending his homeland, instead of corrupting someone elses - maybe we can talk about role models.

Mohammed Ali was a real hero. The man had his livelyhood stripped from him for being someone the conscientious objectors looked up to. Yes, as far as role models go - Ali wasn't the greatest (pardon the pun) he was cocky, arrogant, and sometimes just plain old rambunctious - but as he famously remarked "I aint got no quarrel with them Viet Cong" he was dragged through the mud by the powers that be. Ali had no reason to have quarrel with the Viet Cong, This wasn't a case of Ali choosing to go to war, Ali was stripped of his heavy weight title - arguably one of the most prestigious titles in world sport, just because he had a conscience.

Imagine if Ali had of died in an un-necessary war just as Tilman has - the world would have been void of one of it's greatest champions ever. Tilman obviously had something to beleive in to go and fight for his country in the middle east - now that he is dead, I wonder if his soul thinks it was worth it? I wonder if Tillmans conscience is wishing it had piped up somewhat...

I wonder how many peasant farmers defending their homeland this Tillman character had a direct involvement in killing - yeah, he may be a a soldier following orders, and orders come from the top. Doesn't make those orders right though. The Iraqi's and Afghani people who try going about their day to day lives with American soldiers watching their every move, They are role models.

I try and ask myself the same question with the shoe on the other foot - what would be happening if someone invaded the USA - would the general public who had no association with an American equivelant of the Taliban or the bath party be happy that the invading forces are there? Let me ask you Americans - try and put yourself in the shoes of these peasant arabs, would you stand around smiling and let your homeland be disrespected? I can only speak for myself - I would fight... any invading army that touched my homeland I would fight, I may hate the bath party or the Taliban, but this is my country, and America is powerful, but my blood is part of the soil.

I know this is what Tillman and the other hundreds of US soldiers that are whittling away in the Middle East thought, they thought they were defending their homeland - they weren't. Only time will tell, and i am arrogant in saying this, but in trying to make the world a safer place for our children, they have made it worse.

Bring the troops home... no more Tillmans need to die... heck.. no more John Smith's need to die either... and I would really like it of no more Abduls or Sayeed's died either... War must be a necessary evil, but dont make role models of people who willingly partake in this evil on foreign soil.

BAM!!!

Comments (Page 1)

greywar

on Apr 24, 2004

Son - Do you honestly think that we are disrepecting their homeland when Saddam was not? I love your writing and I apreciate your candor, but some things reallty are worth dying for. Fortunately you are one of those things we are willing to die for. you and every Iraqi liek you. We should be involved in *more* countries liek this, not less. That is the very *basis* of morality, action, not words.

greywar

on Apr 24, 2004

sorry for the weird double post.

Unfairman

on Apr 24, 2004

Hmmm...I respect what you say, Muggaz, and I'm definitely not for the war....but Pat Tillman was something else. He fought for what he believed it, as wrong as it may be.

I agree, no one should have died. But I think that maybe, the fact that one of the US's premier athletes dying in service may send a message: war is bad. People die. He shouldn't have had to die, but he did, and maybe we can learn a lesson from it.
Peace,
Chris

Muggaz

on Apr 24, 2004

I wonder if his family would tell you the same...

BAM!!!

vernmeister2u

on Apr 24, 2004

I wonder if his family would tell you the same...

What does that mean? What would his family say Muggaz?

VES

Mackintosh

on Apr 24, 2004

"I agree, no one should have died. But I think that maybe, the fact that one of the US's premier athletes dying in service may send a message: war is bad. People die. He shouldn't have had to die, but he did, and maybe we can learn a lesson from it."

Righto, because WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam simply did not provide enough learning material.

WiseFawn

on Apr 24, 2004

Muggaz- I imagine you are right about his family. Just as the family that lost one of their three daughters over there. It is time to bring our troops home! Great post and point.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

~Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

MadPoet41

on Apr 24, 2004

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

~Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

I'm with WiseFawn on this one. That is a truly profound quote! Excellent article. This really is one of your more serious ones I've read~and I agree with you 100%.

~MadPoet

Muggaz

on Apr 24, 2004

Thanks for your support guys...

I have been called a troll on the other thread, and lost a fair few points because of it... but what is a few points compared to someones life???

VErnmeister - If you are a member of his family i would beleive you, but for now i will assume that you aren't... I am sure his family wish this never happened... then again, they might be right wing hawk warmongers like half the people on this site...

BAM!!!

imajinit

on Apr 24, 2004

Mug... you of course have your right to your own opinion, and I know that no one is going to change it, but I believe that you're way off base on this one.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, should we have just let that go too? should we have stayed home and defended our homeland, but not taken the fight to them on their homeland?

much more to say on this, but i'm going to await your response

crimson

on Apr 24, 2004

Before I started blogging on Joeuser, I would have immediately said that anyone who fought for the US in this situation was an idiot, pure and simple. I find it hard to believe that there are people who follow orders unquestioningly, and are willing to kill someone else. I would have said, "Don't try to justify murder by saying, 'what do you think their intentions are for us', and ending with 'if we don't do it, what do you think will happen then'?"

Now though? I don't know. There are here who's lives are voluntarily linked with their military. Who believe that they are doing the right thing, and not just brainwashed into doing more evil for a power and money-hungry government. There are those who can articulate good reasons why for me to reconsider my original, harsh stance.

Having said that, I do believe there's a difference between Pearl Harbour and 'the war against terror'. And also, if the US ever invaded Canada (even though we'd get pummeled) I'd still fight, like Mug says.

Like so many have said before me, war sucks. It's hard to take one side, when there are so many variables.
I hope that it all ends soon, but I doubt it.

vernmeister2u

on Apr 24, 2004

Muggaz,

The point I'm making, is the you have no real idea what his family thinks about him or his choice. You can guess, you can throw that emotive hand grenade out into the crowd if you want, but in the end, you don't know. And rationally speaking, you could probably interview different members of his family and get different answers. Until you KNOW what his family members would say, it's an irresponsible comment to toss it out there just because you THINK it would support your position. And if they didn't agree with you, you would just dismiss their opinions because you can label them right wing hawk warmongers. This makes any apparent concern you may actually have for his family very transparent, if existent at all.

VES

vernmeister2u

on Apr 24, 2004

Aside from the above, how can you elect to believe or not believe my first post when I asked questions, I didn't make statments. You can't choose to believe whether or not I asked those questions.

I will leave your blog with an idea, you might say I'm self-imposing a blacklist of my name from you blog.

Liberty is not an imposition.

VES (no meaningless BAMS!!! attached)

shadesofgrey

on Apr 24, 2004

Muggaz:

I would ask you to reread my post--you'll be hard pressed to find anything that I've said that is supportive of the war, but I still believe Tillman was a role model. He's a role model because he did what HE believed in and sacrificed an awful lot to do that--but let's remember also--Tillman died in Afghanistan, not Iraq. He joined up after September 11th, in a response to an attack on American soil--this isn't a about the war in Iraq, whether you are for it or against it--it's about providing an example of someone who gave it all up to do what they thought was right--in my mind, that's a role model. And it's not because he died that he's a role model--he was looked up to well before that by the people who knew and understood the story.

My point isn't that I supported the war, but I've got to respect a person who puts their belief system above all else. As for his family, I can't imagine what they are feeling, nor will I pretend to--you don't have to be a warmonger to respect a person who made the ultimate sacrifice.

I understand your point that Tillman is no different than other soldiers--my point was that he WAS different than other footballers. In the US we tend to call people role models simply because they are famous--they shouldn't be. Apparently I was not clear in my intention--it wasn't to highlight Tillman as more of a role model than other soldiers--rather he's more of a role model than other professional athletes because (I'm starting to sound like a broken record) he held fast to his beliefs.

Also, for the record, I'm not deleting your posts from my thread--you have a right to your opinion as much as I have to mine--you have to admit you got a little off track (I know you are incredible Muggaz, but responsible for global warming and the dinosaurs--I'm not fool enough to believe that--

), but we all do sometimes. I'm glad the conversation was refocused though.

shadesofgrey

on Apr 24, 2004

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. ~Dante

Tillman believed there was a crisis--you only have to listen to his tv interviews after 9/11(before he decided to enlist) to see that--and he didn't remain neutral. I agree that it doesn't make a difference to the dead--but, there are times in history when war has been necessary--only time will tell us if this was one of them--I'm inclined to believe that Iraq wasn't, but I"m sure there were people who believed that invading Nazi Germany wasn't necessary either. Someone fought for my freedom, someone died for my freedom--maybe not today, but at some point in history, my freedom was acheived through struggle. So whether or not it makes a difference to the dead, the dead have made a difference to me. I'm humble enough to be grateful.

And let's remember, you can be against the war, and still support the troops.

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