Role Models

Dying doesn't make you a Role Model

Published on April 24, 2004 By Muggaz In Current Events

Interesting choice of Role Models you have over there in the USA... I was reading Shadesofgreys article on Pat Tilman, and no disrespect to this particular individual - but he is no role model for dying, or joining the army... He was merely a tool in a play between great evils... It was unfortunate he had to die, but dont glorify him because he could have been playing football... It doesn't make him any different from any other soldier that dies.

Is that the kind of message you want to send to your children?? If you go to a foreign country as an invading army, and you die, but you could have been earning millions of dollars playing football - that makes you a role model?

Pat Tilman should never have died. No US soldier should have died in Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter... If Pat Tilman was directly defending his homeland, instead of corrupting someone elses - maybe we can talk about role models.

Mohammed Ali was a real hero. The man had his livelyhood stripped from him for being someone the conscientious objectors looked up to. Yes, as far as role models go - Ali wasn't the greatest (pardon the pun) he was cocky, arrogant, and sometimes just plain old rambunctious - but as he famously remarked "I aint got no quarrel with them Viet Cong" he was dragged through the mud by the powers that be. Ali had no reason to have quarrel with the Viet Cong, This wasn't a case of Ali choosing to go to war, Ali was stripped of his heavy weight title - arguably one of the most prestigious titles in world sport, just because he had a conscience.

Imagine if Ali had of died in an un-necessary war just as Tilman has - the world would have been void of one of it's greatest champions ever. Tilman obviously had something to beleive in to go and fight for his country in the middle east - now that he is dead, I wonder if his soul thinks it was worth it? I wonder if Tillmans conscience is wishing it had piped up somewhat...

I wonder how many peasant farmers defending their homeland this Tillman character had a direct involvement in killing - yeah, he may be a a soldier following orders, and orders come from the top. Doesn't make those orders right though. The Iraqi's and Afghani people who try going about their day to day lives with American soldiers watching their every move, They are role models.

I try and ask myself the same question with the shoe on the other foot - what would be happening if someone invaded the USA - would the general public who had no association with an American equivelant of the Taliban or the bath party be happy that the invading forces are there? Let me ask you Americans - try and put yourself in the shoes of these peasant arabs, would you stand around smiling and let your homeland be disrespected? I can only speak for myself - I would fight... any invading army that touched my homeland I would fight, I may hate the bath party or the Taliban, but this is my country, and America is powerful, but my blood is part of the soil.

I know this is what Tillman and the other hundreds of US soldiers that are whittling away in the Middle East thought, they thought they were defending their homeland - they weren't. Only time will tell, and i am arrogant in saying this, but in trying to make the world a safer place for our children, they have made it worse.

Bring the troops home... no more Tillmans need to die... heck.. no more John Smith's need to die either... and I would really like it of no more Abduls or Sayeed's died either... War must be a necessary evil, but dont make role models of people who willingly partake in this evil on foreign soil.

BAM!!!

Comments (Page 3)

voodoostation

on Apr 25, 2004

Ahh, so you only prefer to speak the language of appeasers? Good luck with that.

Muggaz

on Apr 25, 2004

No, I prefer to learn new languages.

Appeasement is for weak minded fools. I dont claim to know the answer - I just know invading Afghanistan wasn't it.

BAM!!!

voodoostation

on Apr 25, 2004

Sanctions and isolation? Give me a break young man, if you don't have a solution, stay out of the problem. Too many little fingers in it already. I don't want or need your justification for going to Afghanistan, we got hit, not you. This little cat and mouse game of trading quips and retorts is beginning to rub me. Until someone lunatic blows up your residence, reserve judgement.

Muggaz

on Apr 25, 2004

Sanctions and isolation? Give me a break young man, if you don't have a solution, stay out of the problem

Yeah - awesome, Guns and bombs are the answer to all the worlds problems... Keep it up voodoo!!! you are articulating my point better than i could ever have dreamed!!!

BAM!!!

cinnamonstone

on Apr 25, 2004

An excellent article...well articulated and kindly put. As a Canadian now living in Australia it is with interest I watch my home country move further and further away from right wing ideology, we have legalised gay marriage and marijuana in Canada and we refused to change our role of peacekeepers to warmongers in Bush's push to decimate the Arab world.

What a thoughtprovoking way to put the question "Is this what you want for your children?" I have three boys and NO it is not what I want for my children. I am proud to be Canadian, proud of my country that understands that peace cannot be bought with war and that I do not bring my children into this world in the shadow of the draft and with the prospect of one day having blood on their hands in the name of patriotism. But even more than that I am proud to be who I am, a left wing pacifist who is trying to teach her children to TRULY love their neighbor as themselves...in the fullest sense of the word...regardless of colour creed or religion.

Peace

Muggaz

on Apr 26, 2004

Respect Cinnamonstone...

If i was ever forced to leave Australia - Canada would most definitely be the place i choose to call home... I am glad you feel the same about Australia.

BAM!!!

gothic impulse

on Apr 26, 2004

Muggaz ..You make me proud to be aussie. We are lucky here in our " sheltered little island life" we get a broader picture of the world. As for Voodoo's comment made on solutions, I don't see all this fighting solving anything.

crimson

on Apr 26, 2004

Hey, isn't that funny... if I had to leave Canada, I'd move to Australia.
Peace!

shadesofgrey

on Apr 26, 2004

Righto, because WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam simply did not provide enough learning material.

That quote made me think of the song "Green Fields of France."

Ah, young Willie McBride, I can't help wonder why,
Did all those who lay here really know why they died?
And did they believe when they answered the call,
Did they really believe that this war would end war?
For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain,
The killing and dying were all done in vain,
For, young Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again and again and again and again.

Muggaz

on Apr 26, 2004

I have found most of the comments here Inspirational.

You guys are great

BAM!!!

Mandeep Sahota

on Jun 23, 2004

Again, I'm super late to post and all, but I just thought I would like to share my opinion with everyone...well not even an opinion more of a question, cause I'm not afraid to admit that I'm young and don't exactly knwo what's right and wrong. For Afghanistan, I know a lot of you are going to attack me on my comment, but I don't see any other solution than what we did. I was a freshman in high school when that happened. To me it seemed pretty reasonable that we were going in to liberate the people and find Osama. I had a family member that went to Afghanistan and he said that the civilians were overyjoyed when they received food and were liberated from the Taliban. The civilians lived under fear and to be freed of that fear was a great experience for them. Of course there were also the downsides of us invading Afghanistan. Lots of casualities occured, lots of innocent lives were taken and that is tragic. That shouldn't have happened but the reality is that it did... and I'm not saying that the good can justify the bad. All I'm saying is that we were attacked in America cause of hate that has been built over years. We invaded them with a purpose and a motive. I don't understand how some can say that we were being the "Bad" guys. They attacked us on our own soil. It was a personal attack for me when a family friend died in those towers for no good reason except sheer hate. From reviewing your comments above...I see that all of you take either one side or the other, but do not provide any solutions for the problem. Instead of getting comments from all of you that America sucks, and is money-hungry...can some wise person tell me what they would do if they were the president of the united states during the 9/11 attacks. We can't keep saying their is a problem without having an answer for it.

For Iraq....I totally disagreed with invading them, and even as the american youth, I can't believe people supported bush when he never gave a clear answer to the "weapons of mass destruction" and the "inetelligence" they had. I did not see any apparent reason to go into Iraq and by doing that we sunk ourselves down to the level of the terrorist. Just as they had hurt us on our own land, we hurt them on theirs... and as they say Two wrongs don't make a right.

And for Pat Tilman, he was a hero for going into Afghanistan. Everyone who went to Afghanistan were heroes. But I don't think he should get any specific recognition for dying in Iraq cause he could throw a football. There were fathers, brothers, cousins, and wives that went into Afghanistan. They also risked a better life for freedom and democracy. Just because they weren't known for throwing a football, they were known for other things.

with that all said, I would like someone to give me a good response, not just to WHY AMERICA is WRONG, but what America can do to have made it RIGHT. I'm sick and tired of those who don't know the answer themselvses, but enjoy critisizing others.

and again, this is merely my views....well the views I have so far....but many of you have helped change them for the better with your comments...so keep on bringing them in. I'm young, I need all the insight I can get!

bakerstreet

on Jun 23, 2004

Muggaz: So you are saying we had no right to invade Afghanistan, either? I mean I can almost stomach your views on Iraq, but I think our motives for invading a Taliban-ruled nation are pretty self-evident.

You may not have believed as Pat Tilman did, Muggaz. That doesn't change the fact that HE believed it.

So, you wouldn't say that someone who turns down fame and wealth to do something they really believe in is admirable? He believed what the US is doing should be done, as do many of us. You are using a priori logic. You believe the conflict to be wrong, so what he did could not have been noble.

I wouldn't expect you to understand, honestly. You seem like a nice guy, but I can't imagine you ever fighting for anything. You are the new generation, too plagued with self-doubt and cynicism to ever commit to anything. He wasn't, and that is why he is appreciated.

Muggaz

on Jun 23, 2004

I wouldn't expect you to understand, honestly. You seem like a nice guy, but I can't imagine you ever fighting for anything. You are the new generation, too plagued with self-doubt and cynicism to ever commit to anything. He wasn't, and that is why he is appreciated.

That kind of hurt Baker... I guess it just prooves you dont know who I am... and you dont know anything about the Australian mentality either... I can only speak for myself... but if i beleive my family was under threat, I would sign up tomorrow...

As for Pat Tillman... Giving up pro-football was an admirable thing indeed... This article was a couple of months ago... my political leanings have somewhat morphed over the past few months... the USA needed to go to Afghanistan, there was no other alternative... I dont want anyone to die though... is Pat Tillman more of a Role model than your regular Afghani fighter standing up for what he beleives in - defending his homel;and from an invading force?

BAM!!!

bakerstreet

on Jun 23, 2004

Muggaz: I'm glad if you have changed your mind. Honestly, even though it was a bit pointed, I didn't mean it as harsh as it sounded. I'm just old and bitter.

"is Pat Tillman more of a Role model than your regular Afghani fighter standing up for what he beleives in - defending his homel;and from an invading force?"

Afghani fighters aren't defending their homes, we aren't there to take their homes. If they take arms against US forces, they are defending the people are there to kill and capture, terrorists. If they believe acts like 9/11 are just and want to protect Al Qaeda members, then they are the people we are there for.

Again, I should have looked at the date. My apologies.

P.S. It might be wise when you have a change of heart to offer an addendum. These articles stay available to search engines and such, and you keep broadcasting a belief you no longer have. No hard feelings I hope.

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