A day to day acount of the whacky and wonderful world of Muggaz - i tend to be having too much fun these days, and often cannot remember moments due to debauchery - its time the internet repayed my loyalty by recording my antics.
the G-8 shapes the world...
Published on June 10, 2004 By Muggaz In International
Bush has come under heavy criticism from leaders at the G-8 summit for his administration’s policy for forcing democracy in the Middle East. The G-8 is a collective of the worlds leading industrial democracies.

Jacques Chirac has lead the criticism. Chirac said democracy couldn't be achieved in the Middle East until there was substantial progress toward solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – Tony Blair is believed to have the same notions, although his support for Bush remains steadfast, so he will not announce publicly.

Personally, It makes me wonder whether the French have an agenda of their own, or whether they genuinely care about the situation in the Middle-East. If I was French, I would be very interested in the development of peace in the Middle East – seen as though they had a heavy hand in creating the current un-stable environment.

To quote Chirac – “Democracy is not a method, it’s a culture – reform is not imposed from the outside, it is accomplished from the inside”

As each day goes by, it would appear the Bush’s policies in the Middle East continue to alienate his administration from other global powers – Tony Blair cannot blindly support for much longer. He has had meeting’s with Bush on the Palestinian – Israel matter, however, insider sources claim the situation is being approached in different fashions from both parties, obviously to maintain the excellent relationship the UK has with the US, someone will have to compromise soon.

Bush can maintain that the loss of Saddam Hussein from the region will instil democracy in Middle Eastern political culture, however, it would be apparent that he is the only world leader who sincerely thinks this is the case.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the centre of Middle Eastern turmoil, this fact is indisputable. The situation needs to be approached with delicate care. I hope the Bush administration pays attention to the rest of the world while the meetings take place in the safe confines of a resort in Georgia.

BAM!!!

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 10, 2004
Didn't we impose democracy on France after WWII?

Democracy in Iraq is going to have to come from the inside, that is why Iraqis are going to be in charge of Iraq.

The unanimous approval of the UN resolution is hardly a show of international criticism.

on Jun 10, 2004
It would be nice if he listened to others. Hopefully, he will soon be gone and others can start trying to clean up the many messes he left behind.
Good article!
on Jun 10, 2004
Didn't we impose democracy on France after WWII?


What is it with Americans always chasing the moral high ground... On behalf of the French, thanks Madine... thank-you a million times over for liberating Europe... you will note Chirac's statement - Democracy is a culture... one the French already possesed...

The UN resolution was in regards to Iraq... that resolution was always going to be passed... it's time to look at the real issue in the Middle East - Palestine/Israel, and it would appear that the Bush Administration approaches the issue in a completely different light to the rest of the world... I can speculate as to why this may be... and so can you, the simple fact of the matter is that their will never be peace in the middle east unless a suitable compromise is reached - what the US sees as suitable and what everyone else sees as suitable - well, that is the question.

WF - whether Bush goes or not, the Palestinian conflict is going to be hard work...

BAM!!!
on Jun 10, 2004
No doubt, but won't it be wonderful if Bush has no more say or influence?
on Jun 10, 2004
WF - I am afraid it wont have much of an influence... The whole American administration needs to work toward this cause... It's not necessarily the president of the USA, but it is the power brokers behind the president... Israel is an issue that hits very close to home for a lot of Americans... they have to see the other side of the coin...

BAM!!!
on Jun 11, 2004
On behalf of the French, thanks Madine... thank-you a million times over for liberating Europe... you will note Chirac's statement - Democracy is a culture... one the French already possesed...


My intention was not to gloat over the liberation of France

My point was that military force is a decisive force in establishing a government. A better example of democracy being imposed would be Japan or South Korea. I think you would be hard-pressed to argue that there was a strong culture of democracy in Japan prior to US occupation.

If you were to look at which countries in Europe were democracies and which were not after WWII, in most cases the division had everything to do with military occupation and little to do with culture.

It's impossible to have democracy when there is a dictator that controls the people through armed force.

How is the culture of democracy spread? I think the basic neccessities include the free exchange of ideas, civil rights, and education. Do you think that any of these would happen in Iraq under Saddam?

The UN resolution was in regards to Iraq... that resolution was always going to be passed


What makes you so sure? If the French really believe that the current occupation in Iraq is wrong, wouldn't a veto send that clear message? Even abstaining would do that.

it's time to look at the real issue in the Middle East - Palestine/Israel, and it would appear that the Bush Administration approaches the issue in a completely different light to the rest of the world


How so? I believe the peace plan is currently stalled because the Palestinian Authority cannot compel the Palestinian terrorist groups to stop bombing Israel.

what the US sees as suitable and what everyone else sees as suitable - well, that is the question.


I think the goal for the US and most involved parties is a sovereign Palestinian state that is agressively against terrorism and co-exists in peace with Israel.
on Jun 11, 2004
I have no faith that the Palestine-Israel will end soon, so I think that it couldn't hurt to try to help Iraq become democratic as we wait for the impossible.
on Jun 11, 2004

The Vichy regime in France from 1940 to 1943 was not unpopular. Contemporary French opinion at the time was the democracy was an inefficient and corrupt form of government.

I don't think the French are big into democracy today. One look at the EU constitution shows that they have very little faith in the average person. The voters would have little direct control over the EU government.

But let's put aside the French for a moment. What about Japan? Was the Japanese "culture" of 1944 suited for democracy?  What about the Iraqi's? Don't they have a say in this? They WANT democracy. Every poll there has given a clear preference to it. 

The Palestinian issue in the middle east is a red herring. What does Israel have to do with Iraq? Nothing. It's just an excuse for the Europeans to express their latent anti-semitism without being so blatant about it.

on Jun 11, 2004
just exactly how did the us democratize france after ww2? by liberating it from occupation? is it therefore accurate to say that we also democratized every other nazi-occupied country? and where does the french revolution (france being the first continental european nation to overthrow its monarchy in favor of a democratic republic) fit into that world view? on which side of the aisle would one find the french supporters of vichy france and the vestigial pro-monarchists?


arent the neocons--the engine that powered the entire regime change vehicle--engaging in exactly the same sort of confusion between reality, idealism, "the way it should be" vs "the way it is" so often attributed to the left? not merely in concept but in every aspect of the planning and prosecution of the invasion.

the palestinian issue is germane to any discussion of the middle east because it is (for both sides of that issue) a fact of everyday life and death and will continue to be until some resolution is accomplished. our deference to israel (whether real or perceived--and its very difficult to deny we favor the israelis because we have and continue to do so) is interpreted as anti-muslim. whether that interpretation is valid or not isnt as important as the fact of its being the way it is.

as far as europe's latent anti-semitism, if youre going to tar someone else with that brush you better not be wearing white. its shameful to have to admit it, but the us position regarding the creation of the state of israel was motivated by the same sort of nasty nimbyism that kept ships full of european jews from being permitted to make port in the us during the 30s and 40s.

the most interesting issue raised during g8 (to me in any event) was bush's refusal to denounce the use of torture (yes, i saw him dancing around the question twice and neither time very artfully). if, instead of answering the question head on, he was alluding to that recently discovered opinion which, in effect, attaches rights to the presidency beyond those specified by the constitution, he may have been quickstepping himself right out of bounds.

on Jun 11, 2004
It's just an excuse for the Europeans to express their latent anti-semitism without being so blatant about it.


Congratulations, you just labelled an entire continent as anti-semetic. Not just any continent, mind you, but a dazzling array of dozens of states made up of a polyglot of ethnicities.

See, that's the problem. Israel gets a free pass. Guys like you are the first to scream anti-semitism at the first hint of criticism of Israel. Someone else here mentioned the Gen. Zinnini (sp?) story, where he suggested that perhaps Israel has an undue amount of influence at the White House, and the guy (Anthony R) replied "that's the most antisemitic thing I've ever seen". Nobody needs that kind of heat, I sure don't anyway, so Israel gets a free pass.

Making an unsubstantiated claim of antisemitism is a lot less typing than justifying the invasion of Iraq or the policies of Ariel Sharon. It makes it much more uncomfortable to debate this topic. Perhaps that is by design. It's a lot easier to call the people who disagree with you racist or whatever than to actually debate the issue.



on Jun 11, 2004

Let me spell it out: I think as a general statement that Europe is anti-semetic. Note that I did not say that every single European is anti-semetic. Nice try though.

I know, it's been decades since the last time the Europeans tried to exterminate every Jewish person they could get their hands on.  Europe's blind eye for the behavior of Syria, Egypt, and Iran is breath taking. I'm sure they have a good reason for not thinking those countries need to work on their problems. It's just the lone democracy in the region that's the problem. That "shitty little country" (as a French minister put it) that's smaller than many counties in the United States that is the real problem eh?  So France and Germany and others have a problem with Israel. Shocking.

Please feel free to explain how the Palestinian problem has anything at all to do with Iraq. And feel free to defend the argument that the Iraqi's are culturally unready for democacy.

on Jun 11, 2004
This problem in the Middle East wouldnt have happened if the Balfour Declaration of 1917 were unrightfully imposed on Palestine. Similiar to the "Manifest Destiny" of the United States when they unrightfully took the native american's lands. And i agree draginol. im tired of this anti-semitic crap, jews need to stop languishing over the holocaust, b/c they're not the only ones!
on Jun 11, 2004

And it's been decades since millions of Jews wanted to get the hell out of Europe but countries like USA and Canada wouldn't take them. I learned that at the Holocaust Museum. It's not like we didn't have room in our countries for a few million immigrants, so we're perhaps more culpable for the 6 million dead than the Europeans. Again, suggesting that decades ago "Europeans tried to exterminate every Jewish person they could get their hands on" is false, of course. You are including a lot of non-Nazis, ie the vast majority of Europeans, with that remark. Non-factual statements like this add nothing to the debate. I'm aware from reading literature dating back hundreds of years that yes, Jews have been persecuted in Europe, so there is a of degree latent antisemitism there, I don't dispute that. But there are also legitimate complaints from the Europeans about the madness in the Middle East and America and Israel's role in it.

"Please feel free to explain how the Palestinian problem has anything at all to do with Iraq. And feel free to defend the argument that the Iraqi's are culturally unready for democacy." Not my words in either case, but I'll take a shot: Muggaz actually said "The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the centre of Middle Eastern turmoil", not the Iraq invasion; Kingbee expressed a similar sentiment. So you are demanding an answer to an unasked question; I've read the thread and can't see anyone suggesting the Palestine/Iraq thingie. Oh, wait. Robot does, heheheh.

And I'm with Mao that democracy is not a coat you can put on, though I think twisting "Democracy is not a method, it’s a culture – reform is not imposed from the outside, it is accomplished from the inside" into "Iraqi's are culturally unready for democacy" is the very definition of spin. Chirac's quote suggests that you can't impose democracy by force, yours suggests Iraqis are culturally unready for democracy and contains no hint of outside force. A subtle difference but two discrete concepts in my book.

Can I make a suggestion we may agree on? It's a little airy fairy but what the hell, I think we need some original thinking. Let's privatize democracy and export it, like cars or bananas. I got this idea from my Peace Corps days. Basically, my view is that we in "Western Civilization" are really good at governments and public administration. I say that comparatively, as my country often drives me nuts but it's much better than most. It has a lot to do with good schools, free speech and that sort of thing. In my limited world travels I was constantly reminded of the line in Platoon "hell is the absence of reason". I felt that way in a lot of countries. Common sense isn't so common out there. So let's contract out our retired city aldermen, members of parliament and congressmen. I saw how Mexico City hired Giuliani as a consultant after 9/11, that's the sort of thing I mean. Instead of writing blank cheques in the name of international aid, hire someone who will be there and get the job done. More along the lines of a city CAO or a deputy minister rather than a political role.
on Jun 11, 2004
I'm not anti-semitic, but I do believe they're are power brokers who are Jews that want to defend Israel, because I don't! Israel was a country that shoudn't have been established, besides if you want to go to a modern Zion, then head to the US. Jews basically run this country (not Nazi or racist propaganda) in Hollywood and finance. Maybe it's the old "i been persecuted so screw you" feeling that's typical of SOME jews, that similiar to the "im a minority thus im oppressed" feeling that gets me! I do believe whites are responsible for the majority of the world's woes, and it angers me in thinking that we are ignorant of the fact we created our own problems.

Oh shit, im blabbering inconsistenly again. Maybe the six year old kid I just ate a couple hours ago...
on Jun 11, 2004
Yes. Jews and whites are the world's problems, while the Arab nations are the victims.
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