Idealism with Right and Wrong

Published on January 15, 2004 By Muggaz In Politics

I have grown up in Australia, lived here all my life... and I love my country to pieces. Nationalism and Patriotism are definitely two attitudes that i have no problems understanding whatsoever.

Arguing on the internet is rather stupid. The only time someone wins is when the other concedes or is humiliated and does not reply. The simple fact of the matter is that peoples ideals differ greatly, and there really isn't much one can do to change their own ideals if that is all they have known all of their life - the ideals one posseses should be formulated by your own programming, because if you dont program your own mind, the world will do it for you.

What i think is right and wrong, evidently differs from what other people may think is right or wrong - in the scope of things, it doesn't really matter, because at the moment, i am but a small pawn in this great chess game, and my part is yet to be played out i think...

I believe its just part of my personality to not be a passive onlooker. When people express their views, and if i do not agree with them, i tend to see red and react straight away, and i dont really think about why this person came to this belief - i.e. recently there have been many an argument in realtion to 9/11 and US foreign policy. I have been guilty of not thinking about your ideals, and why you have those ideals, and only concentrating on mine.

Just so people can see where i am coming from, i have tried to pen some of these ideals out in relation to historical events. These subjects are definitely open for debate... and i have only tried to guess your ideals (by your, i mean Right Wing...) so, i apologise profusely if i am wrong, i am just trying to write it as i see it.

My ideals - 9/11 was a terrible event, the loss of human life was tragic, however I beleive the US did not have the right to bomb Afghanistan after 9/11 - take more human life... and create a severe chain reaction and create more Osama's for our children to deal with (only they wont be financed by the CIA)

Your ideals - 9/11 was catastophic. 3000 American civilian lives is a lot more than we have killed (!) but someone in Afghanistan had a hand in 9/11, so we have to show them a lesson.

My ideals - Isreal should make more of a concerted effort to live and co-operate with the Palestinians, they were there first and the land was just taken from them because it was convenient, whilst the suicide bombers are wrong in attacking civilians, it is their only form of recognition against an Isreali army that posseses millions of $$$ in military hardware obtained at bargain basement prices

Your ideals - The Jews were there 40,000 years ago and that is their homeland, they have been persecuted for years, and we should do everything in our power to appease them. Palestine should be happy we haven't removed them completely.

My ideals - If a South American country chooses to initiate a communist form of government, it should be up to them and good luck to them - if it is bad, as history shows, the people will rise up and they will prevail.

Your ideals - Communism is evil and we should finance fascist dictators and killing squads to take out communists and their sympathisers

My Ideals - Saddam Hussein is a despicable dictator, but if the Iraqi people hate him enough, they should be able to incite their own revolution - the people will rise up and they will prevail.

Your ideals - Saddam Hussein is a despicable dictator who was useful to us in the past, but now we need some oil and a base in the middle east, so lets instill fear amongst the western world and tell them all he has weapons of mass destruction, then we can justify going to war with them

My ideals - The Vietnamase people had the right to choosing their own form of government

Your ideals - We dont like communism, and they maybe attacked us on the coast, 500,000 US soldiers lives is a small price to pay to end the domino effect... and we sure showed them (!)

My ideals - Cuba can ally with whomever they want, and have any defense they want

Your ideals - There cannot be a Nuclear missile base so close to us, as this would give someone else the aggressive stance, if a war were to start, we want to start it in the best possible position, we want to remain the antagonisers.

None of these ideals can possibly be right or wrong to either of us, because the simple fact of the matter is that what i beleive is right or wrong is often so far polarised to your beliefs, that we will continue to move around in circles and circles - until one is humilated or concedes defeat... which isn't going to happen, because no one is going to concede if they truely believe they are right.

I am rather upset that that i allready have a reputation on this site as a Hate monger. I find it disenchanting that people are so quick to assume that i hate people. I do not hate any one, in fact, i have a lot in common with you people (i LOVE lord of the rings!!) but because my ideals differ from yours, and that i am pointing out i find your attitudes disagreeable, you assume that i hate. Not once have is said that i hate American people. I am not a fanatic. I disagree with your conservative and in my opinion Uni-latteral perspective on the world... It is just my way to make my opinion known. I am no passive onlooker... but i definitely have a long way to go before i can articulate my opinions, and why i find others disagreeable.

Consider yourselves my brain food.

Comments (Page 2)

Draginol

on Jan 20, 2004

And for those who followed the lengthy back and forth about the Vietnam issue, here again is what Muggaz posted originally:

My ideals - The Vietnamase people had the right to choosing their own form of government

Your ideals - We dont like communism, and they maybe attacked us on the coast, 500,000 US soldiers lives is a small price to pay to end the domino effect... and we sure showed them (!)

It should be noted that Muggaz believes that his statement here has not been proven wrong. Which shows an amazing level of intellectual inflexibility on his part. Sure, he condeded the 500,000 deaths but the entire "ideal" is incorrect from a historical point of view (other than the US not liking communism -- though even there, his tone implies disliking communism was a US thing). The idea that the Vietnam people chose communism is sickeningly absurd.

Muggaz's problem isn't that he's an idiot. He's not. He's probably intelligent. His problem is that he confuses intelligence for knowledge. But his unfounded arrogance is his undoing.

Either he realizes he's ignorant on these issues and just being annoying or he's galactically arrogant and is oblivious to his ignorance. Either way, it still does him harm because other people reading this recognize that he's totally wrong on the factual basis of his "ideals".

Any leftie will concur with me... i think you will find in general, my ideas are along the same path... so in essence, you are calling anyone from the left insane! because while they may not agree with me

This is a classic example of the inexperienced debater. He thinks that his ideals are merely a matter of left/right perpspective and therefore anyone on the left would agree with him. He's wrong (again). Facts don't care about ideology. Any educated leftist knows that the Vietnamese people didn't "choose" communism.

Incidentally, any educated leftist knows the difference between "communism" and "Marxist/Lenninism" (i.e. I never said that communism strategy was violent overthrow, but Muggaz doesn't seem to recognize that communism is a theory whereas Marxist/Lenninism is an implementation -- one that believes in the violent overthrow over governments to install a communist government).

Like I said, facts don't care about ideology. The problem with your "ideals" Muggaz is that they aren't based on facts.

And ideals based on ignorance aren't ideals. They're indoctrinated propaganda.

Draginol

on Jan 20, 2004

Name calling didn't get me anywhere... no, but i never called you an 8 year old, or a little child, i merely said your retorts reminded me of such youngsters and i respect you as one... not that you ARE one... n00b

Muggas 5 - Rich Internet dude 1

BTW, you spelled your own handle wrong over and over again. While you may not know the subject matter very well, one would expect you would at least know how to spell your own name/handle.

Secondly, it is fortunate for you that I'm not a "n00b" (gee how elite) or act like an 8 year old. An 8 year old would edit your comments or remove them as I could do as owner of the site. Luckily for you, I'm not an 8 year old but rather an adult who respects the right of people to write what they want on their own blog no matter how foolish they make themselves look.

TheHamster

on Jan 20, 2004

Muggaz: Do yourself a favor and start reading what other people write instead of skimming it.

A lot of your errors come from extrapolation of statements. Brad never compared Ho to Hitler or the NVA to Hitler. He wrote "Please explain the difference between Nazi Germany conquering say Poland and North Vietnam conquering the south."

The Vietnam war was about North Vietnam wanting to conquer South Vietnam by force. The US worked to defend South Vietnam and after a decade and 50,000+ deaths and protests at home the US pulled out.

Brad also clearly specified Marxist/Leninism as the philosophy. Not Communism in general. Lennin believed in spreading communism through the overthrow of governments by violence. Every communist country in history has been spread by this strategy.

It also doesn't help your case that you say infantile things like "Muggas 5, Rich guy 1". How old are you? Each post you make seems to dig yourself further into a hole. Stop digging the hole. As others have pointed out, your facts are wrong in many cases particularly with regard to Vietnam. Re-defining the fact and scoring yourself some imaginary point just looks pitiful.

Muggaz

on Jan 20, 2004

Brad, I think it may be possible to refer to myself as anyway i want... when feeling cruisy and slick.. it's Muggaz... but normally... its just Muggas... You my friend, can call me whatever you want. LOL And i do appreciate you letting me stay here... its a great site.

The Hamster, please observe Brads Post - 'Please explain the difference between Nazi Germany conquering say Poland and North Vietnam conquering the south' I know he never compared Ho to Hitler... i was merely trying to articulate the differences between the situations.

I also specified Marxist/Leninism as the philosophy, and i will argue till i am blue in the face that the definition is revolution, not violence. Now, i know its being particular, because revolutions dont really occur with-out violence... but its a very important difference.

I am sorry you think my 're-defining' (???) the fact looked pitiful... i thought it was fun, and guess what? thats all that matters!!!!

My facts are't wrong at all... yes, i mis-quoted the amount of people that died, i acknowledged that, but essentialy, i know what happened.. this may shock and rock you, but i actually spent a whole year studying the history of Vietnam.. except i learnt it here in Australia where i would be game enough to assume what we learn is a damn site more different to what you would learn.

Muggaz 1 - TheHamster 0

LOL

Peace Out... and have a great day!

JillUser

on Jan 20, 2004

Dig, dig, dig.

Do your homework a little. Marxist/Leninism was all about violence. Liquidating certain classes to build the society as Lenin saw fit. This liquidation was sometimes just exile but mostly execution. It was more conquering than revolting. A revolution is when the people stand up and replace their leaders. Lenin removed the people that stood in the way of him leading and changing the country as he saw fit. Big difference. Try www.the-wood.org/socialism/leninism.htm as a source.

I spent a whole year studying vietnam too. What sort of reference material did you study? I am willing to bet facts are facts. Why would you learn "a damn site different" than what we learn here? Now if you were Vietnamese I could see things being taught differently. I am sure German schools put a whole different spin on WWII.

Couldn't you possibly concede that there may be a few things about history that others know more about than you? I am not saying I am one of those more learned people but you seem to have a problem with conceding to anything. I agree with Brad that you confuse intelligence with knowledge. You seem very intelligent. Hopefully intelligent enough to see that you have some work to do on the arrogance. Maybe that will come with age. Age doesn't always equal maturity though.

Muggaz

on Jan 20, 2004

Ah... the logic of a female... how i have craved it.

Arrogance is definitely a personal flaw of mine... and i definitely concede that Brad et al have a lot more knowledge than me... now its not about facts for me (yeah - go for your life guys...) it is about the attitude of the right winger...

Maybe if you read my post on MLK speach about Vietnam you will see where i am coming from. Whilst i am not religious, i am rather spiritual, and he has articulated in that speach exactly how i feel, not only about Vietnam, but the general right wing attitude.

FYI - Melbourne has one of the largest Vietnamese communities outside Vietnam, so what we learn on the matter has to be rather historically accurate, otherwise alot of people hark up. I am not saying what you learn is not accurate, i am just saying unless you search for it yourselves, a lot of facts will be ommitted - its the same on any historical matter though. I will try and find some of my school books and cite them... it may be a task though! Its actually quite funny that this has come up, because i had a Frech exchange student staying with me at the time... and our teacher just basically ignored the France part of Vietnam when he was in the room because the French were basically savages and they would not be taught this aspect in their curriculum ...

Peace out.

Draginol

on Jan 20, 2004

This is like debating with a flat-earth society person. Muggaz, you're hopeless.

Muggaz

on Jan 20, 2004

what, the earth is round?

you cant be serious?

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