king...

I checked out the link...great link, by the way.

I noticed, however, that even they acknowledge a proliferation of violence in the Islamic world at the bottom of the page ("Islam for Today has only three photos like this...[pictures showing peace vigils] and umpteen like this...[pictures showing anti-American demonstrations and violence]).

The thing is, greywar's article was about a particular act and the lack of outcry over it (for the record, blame in this arena doesn't fall on the Muslim community alone -- times like these are when Amnesty International often remains oddly silent, to their discredit). I wouldn't have titled his post as he did, but the fact is, if he had titled it differently, nobody would have read the damn thing. You know it and I know it.

Back to the linked page: even the authors of the page acknowledge that they are in a very hard fought battle against the fundamentalist sects of Islam.

not a snide comment on the actions of people who practice a faith that isn't even mine.

sorry.   i didnt intend it that way (one of those 'lack of inflection creates chaos' things)  i shoulda added a smiley to indicate surprised  & amused  by the concept that we could solve a lot of problems if we only had computers.

Back to the linked page: even the authors of the page acknowledge that they are in a very hard fought battle against the fundamentalist sects of Islam

reconsidering my earlier proposal for a global fundamentalist monastery, im now of the opinion it could be done at no cost to the rest of us if it were pitched as 'fundamentalist island survivor' altho that concept attaches an even greater need to ensure the victors cant escape...ever.

???? nobody tried googling to find the muslims against terrorism site (theres more muslim clerical condemnation on that page alone than i care to endure) or running down the 800+ other hits you get by using muslim clerics condemn terror as keywords? hereya go Link

Thanks a mint Kingbee... you are always cleaning up after my stupidity - for this I am thankful.

Thank you, kingbee. That's all I was asking for, not a snide comment on the actions of people who practice a faith that isn't even mine. Sorry, mugz, but I asked a legitimate question...and didn't get a legitimate response on that one.

Yeah - Sorry Gid.... but I was genuinely incensed at Greywars article... I had to go outside and take a few deep breathes, and I guess the anger hadn't subsided by the time I replied to you... I am really sorry mate... but I just hate religion... all of it... and the problems it causes...

BAM!!!

"I dont see the pope denouncing kiddy sex acts either..."

Then you haven't been watching. The Catholic Church has denounced such, and you could also, if you wanted, make the point that it is a sin to begin with. More church hate at JU, surprise, surprise...

Then you haven't been watching. The Catholic Church has denounced such, and you could also, if you wanted, make the point that it is a sin to begin with. More church hate at JU, surprise, surprise...

Yeah - Apologies again to everyone.

I can freely admit I distance myself from religious statements and I dont give them the time of day... because the religion is not to blame for the actions, it's the individual...

BAM!!!

That gets iffy, though, Mugz, when the religion dictates that you do the things that greywar's article relates. Granted, religions can evolve, but you can't say that people following religious edict are somehow totally to blame for their actions. Are the people who push the plunger and put people to death totally responsible?

Nah, this is a *system*, based upon religion, and adamantly adhered to by millions and millions of people. Religions evolve, and Islam has in many parts of the world, but saying that religion isn't the issue in the cases greywar relates is like saying the law isn't the issue when I get pulled over. Sure, the policeman could refuse enforce it, but someone else would, and on and on until the law is changed.

It is abused and perpetuated by power hungry people, sure. What allows that, though, is that Arabs of these flavors of faith are willing to believe and adhere to it. If it weren't for that we'd be dealing with maybe a few dozen people. It is the millions enable them, and that the religion is meaningful for, that is the problem.

So Baker - for all the faults in Western Society today - you would safely blame Christianity? do you have complete faith in the fairness of your legal system? It's not as drastic, but it is certainly corrupt.

Islam does need to be re-interpreted and updated, if it weren't for that happening with Christianity, we would still be burning heretics at the stake. I hardly think you can blame the millions of faithful in the Middle East for the persecution of these poor girls, just like you could in no way blame the surfs in Middle Ages society for the burning of the witches.

The people of the Middle East dont know otherwise - so how can you blame them for blindly following their faith? they aren't even following their faith, they are following archaic and outdated interpretations, and I have no doubt in my mind that individuals have raised the point of reinterpreting Islam, however, it's not within the interests of the thugocracies for Islam to be reinterpreted, because the fear of God in their citizens is ideal.

Stop supporting the thugocracies (Saudi Arabia - the home of Islam) and I think we could possibly see a change...

BAM!!!

as far as im concerned the world should build a huge monastery for all the religious fundamentalists and then provide them free (if compulsory) transportation.  just please make the place escape-proof.

Do I get to blog from Fundi-Island?

Do I get to blog from Fundi-Island?

i guess i shoulda added the word 'extremist'?  sorry  (you can do the play-by-play tho)

Do I get to blog from Fundi-Island?

Yeah - there are plenty of amenities in the 'infidel sector'

BAM!!!

Thanks for this post Muggaz it really needed to be posted. Islam does not support the kind of atrocities outline in Greywars article, they are the actions of a corrupt dictatorship and it's judicial system. You cannot say that the 1 billion practicioners of Islam are evil because the dictatorships who rule the Islamic world go against Islamic world to commit atrocities. And can you really blame people in Iraq or Iran for not speaking out against this. If they did, they would be killed. True, if the whole society spoke out against it, the government wouldn't be able to kill them all, but it's hard to be the first one to speak out. Saying that Islam is a bad religion because of what this dictatorship and its judges do is like saying that all black people are immoral because a few black people have committed violent murder. It just doesn't add up.

. Islam does not support the kind of atrocities outline in Greywars article

Islam as defined by the leaders of the religion, (the Imams and Ayatollahs) does  support these acts. Find a fatwa issued against hanging 16 yr olds, buggering little boys, kidnapping civilians, or suicide bombings. Aside from protests as issued by the folks on the excellent link provided by kingbee (all of whom are very low level clerics) you will find not one.

While Muggaz thinks they should issue an "edict" against me he has nothing to say about the edicts they don't issue. Childish.

No one is disputing your sentiments - but to point the finger directly at Islam based on the morons that run the theocracies is nothing short of disgusting.

I am not pointing the finger at them Muggaz, you know who I am pointing the finger at? The Muslims who dance in the streets when a suicide bomber blows kids to bits and those same Muslims who can't muster 50 people for a "moderate Muslim" protest march. Fuck the Imams, the followers of the religion itself are for the vast majority either outright or tacit supporters of these sorts of heinous crimes. Now thats disgusting.

Aside from protests as issued by the folks on the excellent link provided by kingbee (all of whom are very low level clerics) you will find not one

Let's go through this one by one.

buggering little boys

Sodomy is outlawed under most Islamic law codes, and is commonly punishable by execution with a sword.

hanging 16 yr olds

It's legal to execute a 16 year old in the US (the main reason the US refuses to sign the UN convention on the rights of the child) - surely you're not saying Americans are barbaric?

kidnapping civilians

see this link. It's an American site and I don't recognise the cleric's name, but you only ask for one. Link

suicide bombings

This one is less clear; like in Western and Japanese culture, where the sacrifice of the individual for the greater good is heroic, there is no consensus on the ethics of suicide bombing. As everyone is probably aware, the Saudi Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Abdallah Al-Sheikh, the highest religious authority in Saudi Arabia, has spoken against them as they come close, if not actually being, an act of suicide, and therefore against Islam. NU and Muhammadiyah agree, as I stated earlier. However it is easy to find opinions against this, so his view is not necessarily universal.

the followers of the religion itself are for the vast majority either outright or tacit supporters of these sorts of heinous crimes.

Firstly, what have you done to reduce civilian casualties in Iraq? If the answer is nothing, then ask yourself what normal Muslims should have done to limit civilian casualties from their attacks?

In any case, what possible purpose would marching for "moderate Muslim" serve apart from suggesting to you that they are possibly not that bad? Most Muslims don't have the same level of job security as in the west, and don't have a lot of free time. Should they lose their jobs so that you can believe?

"It's legal to execute a 16 year old in the US"

For having a sharp tongue?

People are just being silly now...

but you only ask for one

good find, I would say he is in the tiny minority though by a long shot.