A day to day acount of the whacky and wonderful world of Muggaz - i tend to be having too much fun these days, and often cannot remember moments due to debauchery - its time the internet repayed my loyalty by recording my antics.
What if the shoe was on the other foot?
Published on May 20, 2004 By Muggaz In International
based on this Link

PIcture the crowded Pakistani Market Places, alive and bristling with vibrance and colour one minute....

A desolate wasteland of fire and ash the next.

An International Rogue Crime Syndicate based in the US - All Amercan mercenaries financed by various trust funds, have located Osama bin Laden in Islamabad.

An 8 kiloton weapon is deatonated - a place like Karachi would be just as dense, if not more so than New York.... Thousands, upon thousands die from the rocket attack....

It is quickly learned that the missles were the property of USAF (however the attack wasn't sanctioned by the US) and the mercenaries are predominantly from the combined US defence forces, retired.

Thousands from America, England, Australia all march in support of this action...

What do you think the reaction of Pakistan would be?

BAM!!!




Comments (Page 2)
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on May 20, 2004
Historically speaking, how many "rogue criminal syndicates" of US origin have committed terrorist acts in other countries?


About the same amount of times rogue terrorists have sent a Nuclear Bomb to New York.

This is hypothetical mate... I am not saying it would or will happen, I am asking what the respective responses from Pakistan and America would be, but those who the question was aimed at, cant be brave enough to come here and admit the truth.

Shades... You know me, you know I dont dare class all Americans in the same basket... I am just shedding a little perspective... And I dont think it's Pakistans response we need to fear either - It would be the US's retribution... There is no way the US would permit an invasive pakistani force into America to find and eradicate those responsible and their funders... However, on the other side of the coin, it is just a given that the US is allowed to waltz into any country as it chooses...

BAM!!!
on May 20, 2004

And this scenario is based on what? What previous actions by the US would lend itself to this scenario?

While we're on implausible scenarios, imagine this one: Aliens come to Earth, capture Mugaz, upgrade his brain to one that can make a coherent argument and suddenly he moves up from being community jester to serious intellectual.

on May 20, 2004
The question was not "how many times have people used nukes in terrorist activities?"

It's nice to pose hypothetical situations, but if they have no basis in reality, they are useless. They have no context.

So your answer is no rogue crime syndicates from of US origin have ever committed a terrorist act on another nation. This is quite a bit different from the number of times other nations have had their people commit terrorist acts on us and other nations. This makes your hypothetical situation pointless. Others may well not be answering you dilemna because they see that it is pointless and don't even want to take the time like I have to show you why.

Brad's situation however represents a logical progression demonstrated by terrorist's desire to inflict greater and greater casualties with each successive terrorist act against us.


VES
on May 20, 2004
Historically speaking, how many "rogue criminal syndicates" of US origin have committed terrorist acts in other countries?

just in our own hemisphere or do you want to expand that question further? which period of time?

mexico, honduras, el salvador, nicaragua, panama, colombia, venezuela, cuba (pre-castro and post-castro)

pick any 2 and any century
on May 20, 2004
While we're on implausible scenarios, imagine this one: Aliens come to Earth, capture Mugaz, upgrade his brain to one that can make a coherent argument and suddenly he moves up from being community jester to serious intellectual.


Brad,

I am glad you consider me capable of becoming a coherent intelectual, even if it would take a little help from Aliens... Thats why you are wasting your time... trying to get your point across that the US does not deserve any hostility at all will never sit with me... yes, their are varying degrees of hostility, I have never justified thousands of people dying all I have done is said that this is a cause of an effect... and you are ever so blind to that...

BAM!!!
on May 20, 2004

While we're on implausible scenarios, imagine this one: Aliens come to Earth, capture Mugaz, upgrade his brain to one that can make a coherent argument and suddenly he moves up from being community jester to serious intellectual.


Brad--that was a bit harsh, don't you think?  Really, name calling should be beneath you.  Last time I checked, this was Muggaz's blog and he can write whatever he'd like, whether plausbile or not.  If you don't have something constructive to add, I might suggest looking elsewhere.


Muggaz--I'm confused as you why you are fearing US retribution after an attack by "retired US military perssonel."  If you mean US retribution after al Queda chimes in with a response, maybe.  But, projecting to 2008, Bush will definitely not be the President after Nov, 2008 (and hopefully not after Nov, 2004).  Let's say Bush wins this election and therefore Hillary runs in 2008 as she is threatening to do.  If she wins, I don't think you'd have to fear an immediate lash out--she'd most likely be cautious with a response.  Or, she could try to prove the point that women are just as "war-like" as men, and go after them guns blazing.  Yup, so my answer is--well, I guess it all depends.

on May 20, 2004
Rational:
Since:

"The fact that some countries achieve their ends through the means of people who can't be directly tied to them does not absolve that country of responsibility."

With regard to the retired soldiers attack on Pakistan (the original scenario of the post) would the US would then be held partially culpable, if Pakistan asks the US to hand over those responsible, (as we did in Afghanistan), should we do so?

If we do not, would Pakistan be justified in coming in and getting them? As we did in Afghanistan?

IG
on May 20, 2004
Shades - thanks for the defense... where would i be without the ladies of JU?

as for US retribution - Its based on the assumption that Pakistan would act like the US - Intervene. The US would not allow this, so I fear the lack of retribution, or the drastic ammounts should Pakistan take and aggesive stance.

The main point I am emphasising is one rule for USA, and another for the rest of the world. People like BakerStreet mention that terrorists should go on hunger strikes... If pakistan sent some troops and desicrated the USA, would the people of USA sit on their hands and starve to death?

Ridiculous double standards aside, as the worlds leader, the USA has a responsibility to lead the way... Violence breeds violence...

BAM!!!

on May 20, 2004

Muggaz: Please listen carefully because words mean things:

There is a big difference between arguing that Americans do not deserve to be slaughtered wholesale and arguing that the United States doesn't deserve any hostility.

on May 20, 2004
It is you that need to listen Brad.

If someone accuses me of being happy that thousands of people died on 9/11... well, it just prooves that they dont know who I am. Those that know me on these forums - they know I am no advocate of terrorism.

I dont know how I can get my point across to you? The issue is that you see 9/11 as the core issue, I see American foreign policy as the core issue. AS far as I can see, that is really the bottom line.

It doesn't make what happened right or wrong, It just helps me undertand why it happened, and it makes me think what I can do as a person to try and stop it from happening in the future.

Americans seem to think that going to war on foreign soil will solve all the world's problems... I hate to sound belittling, but anyone who hasn't figured out that this is not the answer, is a blind fool. There are extenuating circumstances that require conflict - we cannot avoid it, but I would rather it be kept to a minimum... I wish US troops did not have to die on foreign soil...

The USA can continue being the worlds police man, however, based on the current path and attitude toward the US, and you see this yourself, the threat of terrorists nuking New York is a real one - what can be done to eradicate this threat? If you had your way? Is it possible to root out all terrorist organisations?

BAM!!!
on May 20, 2004

The main point I am emphasising is one rule for USA, and another for the rest of the world. People like BakerStreet mention that terrorists should go on hunger strikes... If pakistan sent some troops and desicrated the USA, would the people of USA sit on their hands and starve to death?


Let's not mention the fact that hunger strikes get you no where.  Remember the '81 hunger strikes by IRA prisoners fighting to be recognized as political prisioners and not ordinary decent criminals?  Of course not, you weren't even born, were you?  Anyway, Thatcher let Bobby Sands and 9 other die refusing to negotiate.  The lesson that was learned was that nonviolence doesn't get you any further than violence.  No concessions were going to be made by the British Government, and in the meantime 10 "volunteers" perished.  (On an aside:  Everyone should read Nor Meekly Serve My Time.  It's an incredible account from inside the H-Block during the strikes.  Whether or not you agree with the IRA, the book certainly sheds light on their perspective and motives).


Muggaz, the double standard is stronger than you're stating.  Look at the IRA again.  Where do they get their funding from? Until 9/11 it was predominantly coming from the US.  It's sad that we Americans had little problem throwing some money into a tip jar in a 'RA bar in NYC knowing full well that the money was not being added to the Republican Library Fund.  So why, after supporting armed struggle elsewhere did we expect the world to mourn with us on 9/11.  I was actually in Belfast on 9/11 and I can't tell you the number of times that I was greeted with, "yes, it's a very sad day, but now you know how we feel, what we've been going through."  It was a startling wake up call.


It all just leads me back to the question: "who decides who is a terrorist?"  I haven't got the answer, though I've attempted to answer it twice in blogs.  The first met with bitter critism accusing me of "giving terrorists ideas."  The other has been virtually ignored.   

on May 20, 2004
History.

History is the only judge of a terrorist and a patriot, because in the present they can be both. A person is judged a freedom fighter/terrorist based on the society they are working against. To us John Adams is a patriot, working to bring forth a new nation. To the english he was a traitor to the crown. A treasonous man of the highest order.

IG

p.s. And to quote 1776: A rebellion is always legal in the first person such as our rebellion. It is only illegal in the third person, their rebellion.
on May 20, 2004

Muggaz: I think your weed habit has damaged too many brain cells so I'm going to be brief here and then not respond again since there's really no point trying to discuss this with you since you seem incapable of reading words people write and understanding them.

1) I didn't imply that you were happy that people died on 9/11.

2) I never implied that people don't have a reason or a right to have hostile feelings towards the United States.

My position is pretty simple: Being mad or politically opposed doesn't give you the right to murder someone.  I don't agree with your political positions but not only do I choose not to have you killed, I tolerate them by giving you a vehicle to express them to thousands of other people.

The blame for people who murder other people lies with the ones doing the murdering.

on May 20, 2004
Brad,
What about this for a scenario then:

Picture a Honduran large Honduran village in 1984. alive and bristling with vibrance and colour one minute....

A scene of carnage the next

A government squad of highly trained soldiers suspect that the village has been harbouring anti government sympathisers. They round up the villages, torture them and then slaughter them all with submachine guns, machettes even clubs (men, women and children alike) as a lesson to other villages.

It is quickly learned that the government squad is funded and trained by the CIA and that it's leader learned his advanced at the 'School of Americas'

What do you think the feelings of the population would be towards the US?


Before anyone describes this as fanciful, I met a friend from Peru just after 9/11...her reaction was: "Its sad, but maybe now they know how it feels."

on May 20, 2004
That should read:

It is quickly learned that the government squad is funded and trained by the CIA and that it's leader learned his advanced 'interrogation' techniques at the 'School of Americas'


one day I will learn how to drive a computer
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